I strongly believe that the american justice system is a mess, and i am not refering to this. The fact is we send people guilty of DUI's, petty theft, ect to prison where they become worse criminals. Now this does not mean that I believe Lindsay Lohan, or anyone guilty of a DUI should be getting off with no reprecussions, but prison is not the right place for them. Did you know that 14,000 in every 100,000 prisoners suffer assault (that, by the way is the reported statistics… think about the unreported) and 100-700 in every 100,000 are murderd/commit suicide. These are staggeringly disprortionate to the rest of society (but make sense, put immoral violent poeple in a room together and…)

I dont have a solution.. i just don't like prison for these kind of crimes… of course, i think its disgusting people can do these crimes - its only beucase shes a celeb… Im just torn, we need state remanded rehab for people like this (even years of it).

i had a link:
http://www.prisonexp.org/

She belongs in jail. As far as I'm concerned, every person that gets behind the wheel of a car and drives while under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol is guilty of attempted murder.

The better answer is to incorporate rehabilitation into the prison system, to overhaul the prison system, but the answer is not to let people that risk the lives of others walk around with a slap on the wrist and time hiking, rafting, and biking away their problems.

This girl has been to rehab three times, when do we start paying attention? After she kills someone.

The problem with statistics is they only present the picture someone wants presented, for instance how many of those 14,000 assaulted someone to land in prison or how many of those 100-700 (big statistical gap) that are murdered or commit suicide murdered someone to land in prison. The ones being assaulted, murdered, and committing suicide are not simply the ones committing petty theft. As far as people that commit DUI's, well, they may not be rapist, pedophiles, or murderers but they also aren't the mother that stole groceries to feed her family.

i completely agree that they are not (the 100-700 isnt as big as it would seem, the 14,000 is a general trend amongs states but the 100-700 is to show the state to state difference). I think she should be punished, and i am not saying she should NOT be sent to jail as that is the only option we have for punishing DUIS i think its wrong shes only getting 4 days.

I just mean that over all I do not agree with jail sentencez for non-violent crimes, however, we do not have a better system. I beleive the current system turns non violent criminals into criminals and i think that that is worse than the crimes we commit, except we have yet to come up wiht a better system and becuase of that non violent criminals.

it breaks down to drunks are sick individuals, drunk drivers are selfish, distgustin sick individuals, BUT do we want to turn them into criminals. no i dont. Should we ruin thier lives in ways beyond that which was doled out by the jsutice system, no. do we have a better system? no. so they have to go to jail becuase they have to be punished.

i just dont liek it, that doesnt mean i dont think it shoudl happen.

also i dont care if murders are being murdered in prison, murder is wrong.

hhmmmmm….i think i'll stay out of this one.

I agree with April. Our prisons are bogged down with non-violent offenders that learn to become violent offenders from the people that they are locked up with. As giddy as I was to see Paris Hilton in the clink, did she become rehabilitated by serving time? Neither will Lindsay Lohan.

I agree with Cavy. Being a 12-step person myself, she is SERIOUSLY giving AA a "bad name." As long as other people out there realize that it is Lindsay messing up, and NOT the program…Still, like others have mentioned, she needs to be sent AWAY–to jail–NOT to Summer Camp! Why REWARD BAD BEHAVIOR?! She is NOT doing anything to CHANGE her behavior in these rehabs, plain and simple! And, her OWN father says she needs to do jail time to learn.

Saying that jail turns non-violent criminals into hardened criminals that commit even worse offenses removes free will from the equation, these people make choices to either leave prison and lead a better life or leave prison and lead a life of escalating crime. People make choices, people make bad choices, and some people make the worst choices of them all.

Does the prison system and judicial punishment need to be reformed, yes, without a doubt it does, but one person's idea of a small crime is another person's idea of a heinous crime. For instance, I believe repeat drunk drivers are heinous individuals that deserve to serve years and years in prison while others would send them to rehab over and over again, I vehemently disagree with that solution.

If drunks that drive should be sent to rehab because the underlying problem is a psychological disease for which they need help, what about the drunk that rapes someone, what about the drunk that shoots someone, what about the drunk that doesn't get lucky and manages to kill someone with their car, when do we draw the line at treating the disease as opposed to punishing the crime if the idea is that alcoholics and drug addicts can't help it because they are sick.

Treat the disease but punish the crime, it doesn't have to be either-or. The prison systems need to strike the balance between punishment and rehabilitation.

What drama, she is only twenty, you gotta work this stuff out of your system. Rehab is not the way to go. Something else to fail at.

http://www.ilsvont.com

I will respectfully disagree with your opinion. I can see where you are coming from, but to me, I cannot equate a non-violent drug or DUI offender (one that did not cause an accident or other injury to another human being) with a murderer or rapist or the like.

It's not about equating the crimes as they are vastly different, it's about equating the rationale behind the crimes, if the non-violent drug or alcohol offender, non-violent because their actions didn't cause anyone's death that time, is sick because of the underlying illness and gets a pass then why should others that commit violent offenses because of the same underlying illness be dealt with more severely. I think they should all be punished for the crime they commit; none of them should get a free ride.

i never said draw the line and only treat the disease.. i said that our current system does not adequately account for drunk drives. There is a HUGE difference between rape and drunk driving and their for they should be punished differently.. but they arent. There is a difference between premeditated murder and drunk driving and therefor should be punished differently, but are not. The system is wrong but there is currently no other solution.

pedophiles and drunk drivers are not the same thing, wife abusers and drunk drivers are not the same thing BUT sending them to prison can turn joe schmoe down on his luck selfish jerk alcoholic into joe hardened criminal. Why turn a bad situation worse? Why? Becuase we don't have an adequate system. Personally I believe in state sponsored rehab clinics like statesponsored halfway houses. THese are not vacations where one can come and go. They would operate much like prison with sentences, limitation on visitors, gaurds, and an inability to leave on your own freewill, but only when allowed… but those too would digress into a system that creates bad situations.

Possibily we should look to germany's criminal justice system.
my point all along has never been that she, or any drunk driver should get off for drunk driving, my point is that drunk drivers need more in the way of rehabilitation than "punishment." Which isnt to say they shouldnt be off the streets, but certainly our current system does not allow for differentiation in crime. Crime is not black and white, but our justice system is, both figuratively and sadly litterally.

I am not saying I do not think drunk drivers should not go to prison becuase prison is the ONLY option we have to turn to, what i am saying is that i dont agree with it being the only option we need to change the system so there is another one.. until there is, however, its what we must do.

Whew! All I can offer is that Paris Hilton is now really like our own personal Jesus, sacrificing herself so that other young starlets can escape the wrath of the California Penal System.

Back to the legitimate conversation…

I understood what you said and on the point of prison and punishment reform we agree. However, a drunk driver is only vastly different from a murderer, rapist, wife beater, or pedophile until they kill, maim, psychologically scar, or destroy someone else's life. Then what happens, then what do we say.

Free will is still free will, the prison may play its part in hardening criminals, but where does personal responsibility come into play in any of these scenarios. People need to take responsibility for their actions, people need to give a damn, and the biggest problem in all of this is that people sometimes simply don't.

Your point is they need rehabilitation over punishment and my point has been they need both in equal measures.

I think the place where we diverge is that I think that a drunk driver should only be punished for the crimes directly relating to what they have actually done, not what they "may do or maybe could have done." You could use the same arguement for harshly punishing people that drive while doing any number of things (like eating, talking on cells, applying makeup, etc) that could lead to tragic outcomes.

actually even assualt (w/o battery) isnt punished as battery is becuase the threat of battery is not the same as battery itself.

I am not suggesting punishing the drunk driver for a crime they may commit, that brings up the notion of pre-crime and has big brother implications all over it. What I am saying is that drunk drivers deserve their time in jail while simultaneously receiving treatment - period, not rehab facilities. I have never said the punishment should outstrip the crime nor suggest they be sent away for 20 years to life or live out their days on death row, but to pretend as if they are simply individuals with an illness that somehow mitigates or excuses the illegality of what they've done is absurd to me. They are criminals, it is against the law, and where you might see drunk driving as a nonviolent offense, I do not.

I cannot believe this! That is total bullshit! Where I live, there are NO breaks!! If I was to get arrested for that stuff, I would be in jail, jail, jail!

I apologize if I misunderstood you. Again, I see the drunk-driving part of it as non-violent, it only becomes a violent crime when someone is injured because of the drunk-driving.

BTW, hope that I am not giving anyone the impression that I am all for drunk-driving, because I'm not.

Also, all drunk drivers are not necessarily alcoholics who can claim powerlessness over their disease. Some are just people who drank too much on a certain occasion and made the stupid decision to drive their vehicle.

drunk driving is drunk driving
manslaughter while driving under the influence is
2 crimes, that of manslaughter and that of drunk driving. does one lead to the other? yes. are they they same crime? no. i dont view drunk driving as violent? Serious? Yes, a very serious crime- possibly one of the most serious, but a nonviolent one. It is wreckless endangerment of others. But as there was not harm it should be treated as such, the offender should be corrected and rehabilitated for society, but certainly not treated as murderer.

Taking PCP can make one violent. If caught on PCP the user should oly be punished for takin ghte drug, but the very act of taking hte drug is endangerment by drunk driving is a nonviolent crime standards, is it not? Or violent drunks - its not illegal to drink, but a violent drunk is endangering anyone in thier way by ingesting small amounts of alcohol, therefore should drinking be punished as a violent crime for drunks even though its not?

I see your point but i cannot agree that drunk drving is a violent crime, it is a gateway. It needs punishment and rehabilitation but we need to find a new form of punishment. Jail isnt the answer (well until we have a new one it is the answer, just not a very good one). I agree we must punish and rehabilitate i just think the current form of punishemnt doesnt fit the crime - i dont have a better one though (which is why i would NEVER want a job in criminal law).

i do one hundered percent believe in the permenant removal of the liscense of repeat drunk drivers, my question is why the hell does she still have hers?

drunk driving is drunk driving
manslaughter while driving under the influence is
2 crimes, that of manslaughter and that of drunk driving. does one lead to the other? yes. are they they same crime? no. i dont view drunk driving as violent? Serious? Yes, a very serious crime- possibly one of the most serious, but a nonviolent one. It is wreckless endangerment of others. But as there was not harm it should be treated as such, the offender should be corrected and rehabilitated for society, but certainly not treated as murderer.

Taking PCP can make one violent. If caught on PCP the user should oly be punished for takin ghte drug, but the very act of taking hte drug is endangerment by drunk driving is a violent crime standards, is it not? Or violent drunks - its not illegal to drink, but a violent drunk is endangering anyone in thier way by ingesting small amounts of alcohol, therefore should drinking be punished as a violent crime for drunks even though its not?

I see your point but i cannot agree that drunk drving is a violent crime, it is a gateway. It needs punishment and rehabilitation but we need to find a new form of punishment. Jail isnt the answer (well until we have a new one it is the answer, just not a very good one). I agree we must punish and rehabilitate i just think the current form of punishemnt doesnt fit the crime - i dont have a better one though (which is why i would NEVER want a job in criminal law).

i do one hundered percent believe in the permenant removal of the liscense of repeat drunk drivers, my question is why the hell does she still have hers?

drunk driving is drunk driving
manslaughter while driving under the influence is
2 crimes, that of manslaughter and that of drunk driving. does one lead to the other? yes. are they they same crime? no. i dont view drunk driving as violent? Serious? Yes, a very serious crime- possibly one of the most serious, but a nonviolent one. It is wreckless endangerment of others. But as there was not harm it should be treated as such, the offender should be corrected and rehabilitated for society, but certainly not treated as murderer.

Taking PCP can make one violent. If caught on PCP the user should oly be punished for takin ghte drug, but the very act of taking hte drug is endangerment by drunk driving is a violent crime standards, is it not? Or violent drunks - its not illegal to drink, but a violent drunk is endangering anyone in thier way by ingesting small amounts of alcohol, therefore should drinking be punished as a violent crime for drunks even though its not?

I see your point but i cannot agree that drunk drving is a violent crime, it is a gateway. It needs punishment and rehabilitation but we need to find a new form of punishment. Jail isnt the answer (well until we have a new one it is the answer, just not a very good one). I agree we must punish and rehabilitate i just think the current form of punishemnt doesnt fit the crime - i dont have a better one though (which is why i would NEVER want a job in criminal law).

i do one hundered percent believe in the permenant removal of the liscense of repeat drunk drivers, my question is why the hell does she still have hers?

paragraph 2 **drunk driving as a violent crime

type contradicted myself :-)

ooh me too! im not for drunk driving or think its only alcoholics.. i just feel really strongly about rehabilitating our criminal justice system to facilitate better ways to punish non violent criminals.

i feel like assualt and rape (and consentual coerced sex ABSOLUTELY qualifies as rape in my book) is too heavy a punishment for many offense people face general population jailtime for.

but i think lilo's charges being dropped is bullshit.

I'm torn on permanently suspending driver's licenses (again speaking strictly for DUI offenses only, not where injury or death occur). I see where the intent is to keep the danger off of the road, but a determined drunk will drive no matter if they have a license to or not. Who those kinds of laws really hurt are the reformed offender's family and friends, who have to take them to work, errands, drive their kids places, etc.

there is the driving miss daisy liscence which allows from driving from 730-430. allows the offender to go to work.

Drunk driving is beyond stupid it is selfish, irresponsible, inexcusable, reckless, dangerous, and potentially deadly.

I never asserted that all drunk drivers were alcoholics my statement was in response to April’s statement that they were in fact sick individuals that needed rehabilitation more than they needed punishment, when in fact, some drunk drivers are just selfish assholes bent on their on self destruction and could care less who or what they take with them.

The permanent revocation of someone’s license is hardly an effective tool to keep them from driving, people will do what they choose to do, especially if the penalty for the act isn’t harsh enough to warrant better behaviour.

Everything that I’ve said is about drunk driving in general, specifically where Lindsay is concerned she should sit in jail without the benefit of long walks, bike rides, and days reading in the sun. She was caught driving drunk twice, she was found with cocaine on her person, cocaine was found in her system, she drove on a suspended license, so I have no sympathy for her “illness” or her plight. Bagging groceries isn’t going to make her a better person and rehab only works as well as the participant wants it to.

As far as those individuals that don't realise they are legally intoxicated, because they certainly know they've been drinking, and get behind the wheel of a car well maybe getting caught once will make them think twice the next time.

after 96 hours-6 months in jail (Section 23152 of CA criminal code for first time offenders) anyone would think twice about doing it again.

I'm not saying Lindsay Lohan shouldn't face consequences/punishment for what she's done. However, my point is only that throwing her (and others like her) in county jail for 5-10 days for a minor, non-violent offense is not going to stop her issues. This girl needs some serious counseling and detox.

DUI laws are pretty much inept at fixing what the actual problems are, and for many communities (my own included), it's a revenue stream for the local goverment. Special yellow license plates, steep fines, and court/lawyer fees don't address any underlying issues. Treatment should be mandatory if the person is suspected to be alcoholic after being evaluated by a professional.

One thing that needs to change is the notion that drunk driving is a minor offense.

She needs counseling, she needs rehab, and she needs jail time and not five to 10 days or 96 hours to six months, but real honest to goodness jail time.

I just don't get you. Rather than retype my point twenty times, I will just say, "See number 19." Just because the potential for harm is there, does not equate to actual harm being done. Which makes it a "minor" offense, as opposed to ax murdering 50 people while downing a 12 pack.

If six months for a first offender is too light a sentence for you, what would be ideal? Five years? Ten?

This does not equate to justice in my mind.

You don't have to get me, I'm here to state my opinion the same as anyone else, it just happens to differ from yours. I saw your points, I read your points, all of them, and I still disagree with some of what you say just as you disagree with me, I'm not sure what the problem is.

I would say there is a vast spectrum between say the mass murder of 50 people, drunk driving, and stealing apples to feed your children. Stealing apples to feed your children is a minor offense in my view of the world, getting behind the wheel of a 3,000-pound piece of machinery while you are drunk and/or high is not. You say minor, I say not so much.

Oh, I forgot the second half of your question, how much time is enough for a first time offender, well Lindsay would not technically be a first time offender, so that nixes that question since my comment on honest to goodness jail time was part of a statement on what Lindsay both needs and deserves, as far as I’m concerned.

I'm not trying to be pissy, really. I just can't understand how the act of drunk driving, while irresponsible and risky to yourself and others to say the least, should be punishable by more than six months in jail when no other crime was committed in conjunction.

Yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, while risky, and could cause people to be trampled to death in a panic, is not the same as actually setting fire to a theatre, trapping people inside.

Lindsay did commit other crimes in conjunction with her drunk driving offense some of them felonies. I think the problem is you are taking my words that are directed specifically towards Lindsay’s situation and applying them to the world at large, so I'll just refer back to what I said in #34 and add that six months is not enough time for habitual drunk drivers.

We'll just agree to disagree, because frankly, I am just disgusted with myself right now for defending Lindsay Lohan for half the damn day. You win.

i would liek to point out i was NEVER defending LILO.. i said that from the getgo. i dont like the system.

we'll agree to disagree however.

Oh, whatever, April, leave me hanging out to dry. It's all your fault I got in this mess anyway. I was agreeing with you. :)

Where's my Tom-ba Juice? I need a drink.

"I strongly believe that the american justice system is a mess, and i am not refering to this. "

god me too. what a waste of a day,defending lilo i need my Tom-ba and i want jager in it.

well iguess technically i was defending her, she falls under hte umbrella of what we were defending, but i feel like it was never specifically her…

thank god, can you imagine going to bat for linds for like 2 hours?

I want some vodka in my Tom-ba Juice. I promise to take a cab home.